Don't have sex without a condom = do have sex?

[arpad]

Jerusalem Post Listening to Israeli radio stations will be forbidden for religious combat soldiers serving on Navy ships during Shabbat and religious holidays.

According to an instruction publicized Friday in an IDF Rabbinate pamphlet, since a Jew should not benefit from another Jew's Shabbat desecration, religious soldiers who wish to remain alert during Shabbat will be able to turn the radio on before Shabbat commences but only if they tune in to non-Jewish stations.

The new pamphlet is set to be distributed to new naval officers and soldiers participating in naval courses.

The new rules will not apply to secular soldiers who will be able to listen to any station they choose, an IDF source said.

Am I dreaming or what you just read is actually IDF Rabbinate permission to listen to radio during Shabbat in the Navy? :))))

Comments

[shaggy.livejournal.com]

Танахический склад ума.

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

i don't see a contradiction.

you can't do work on shabbat (i.e. turn anything on or off). but you can watch/listen to (anything already on or off).
BUT (a built-in precationary measure)since no jew should benefit from another's shabbat desecration, the stations should not be jewish.

where's the contradiction?

[arpad.livejournal.com]

Well, religious Jews do not put TV/raido on timer, nor they leave it work on any channel - they just turn it off regardless of the channel. It's a rule, not a practice, though I do not know how exactly it explained.

Therefore, using radio to help yourself not to sleep on your Saturday watch - actually broadens borders of permitted area.

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

that's not true.
religious jews can even use an elevator as long as it's pre-programmed to stop on every floor (that way they are not doing any "work" by pressing button (i.e. generating electrical action).
similarly, toilet paper :) must be pre-ripped (or tissue used instead) to avoid the action of ripping (also considered "work")

what i don't understand, however, is how come "saturday WATCH" is not considered work. :) and if the watcher is armed (and i assume he is) why carrying a weapon is not considered "carrying"

[ascir.livejournal.com]

I assume that there should be some special regulations for soldiers on duty. I think that a religious Jew should be allowed to fight on Saturday if this is inevitable.

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

that makes sense, but then, the restriction on radio in line of duty doesn't.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's caused not by "you shan't press electric switch" but by "Fun + Shabbes = no good".

When defending your country you can break Shabbat same as when saving lives.

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

there is no rule against fun on shabbos. on the contrary.
where did you hear that?

[arpad.livejournal.com]

Change "fun" to "unholy entertainment" :)

Seriously - I do not know how it is explained. But I just know for certain that it is an iron practice in every ortodox home.

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

what is - not having fun on sat.? :D

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

here you go, this should help clear a few things up:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/shabbat.html#Shamor

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

more detail:
http://www.torahsearch.com/page.cfm/1523

see, it's all about lack of "work", not lack of fun. not at all.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

I kinda know these basic things.

And I kinda do not care to know them deeper than the very basics.

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

then you probably shouldn't be commenting on rabbinical decisions, one would think.

p.s. that's a rather infantile way of (not) admitting you were mistaken.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

1. I know about work issue and other trivia.
2. I know that religious people can have fun on Saturday. I don't like when someone else think that I can say opposite seriously.
3. I also know how religious Jews in Israel made Shabbat a living hell for everyone else. And I think I can joke about that too.

Hope that clarify. So - lets return to the matter in hand.

a) I think that "desecration of Shabbat by others" looks like an actual ruling on the issue. I think that the ruling had no exceptions at least because there were no foreign channels or sophisticated players when the ruling was done. I also think that there was zero chance for exception in any case.
b) So what we have prior to the new ruling is tradition that makes no exceptions and ruling that supported that no exceptions policy.
c) But there is a problem (or hypotetic problem) in the army that require to change the old ruling - so the new ruling, as usual, makes its way around old one, since in the modern world we can safely listen to shabbes goys.
d) What I find very funny is the way the new ruling is announced. When it actually opens a way to do something that was not directly allowed before, it still is written in a way that makes it a journalist magnet.

That's all

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

i was born and raised in israel and don't remember shabbat being a living hell at all :) even when it was the only day off (when we had a one-day weekend)

[arpad.livejournal.com]

Well - for one who does not observe and does not have a car "no public transportation on Shabbat" means a lot. Total closure of almost everything during the only day off work (and for non middle class work is 6, not 5 days a week) is also not so funny.

In US Judaism is important link between a person and his/her heritage. In US Judaism is living and changing. In Israel Judaism instead of bringing Jews together drives them apart. I hate that.

But I think we should not desecrate Shabbat further by discussion in this direction :)

[kazablanka.livejournal.com]

that's fine, if you don't want to discuss it, we won't. :)

as for desecration - i'm sure shabbat would rather be discussed than ignored. :)

[magogue.livejournal.com]

The main problem with watching preset TV on shabbat it that of "Mar'it Ayn" - some infidel can walk by when you are busy having fun and think you have just turned it on.
Additionally, there is a "Syag laTorah" thingy which prevents the Orthodox Jew to generally mess around with Electronic stuff to drive him away from the possibility to sin, and "Isur Hanaa" which forbids to enjoy the products of the sinfull work of TV operators in ShabbatTime (which is quite funny, because technically it forbids the Jew to enjoy any kind of TV and Cinema at all given the huge amount of Hebrews working in the industry, probably including shabbats. A familiar Rav of mine could'nt give me a satisfactory answer to that)

[arpad.livejournal.com]

"Mar'it Ayn" - good point - I should have remembered this one.

[alexcohn.livejournal.com]

Ключевая фраза: "wish to remain alert". Это забота на уровне פיקוח נפש. Кстати, к водителям это тоже относится: если ты нужно вести машину в шабат, можно слушать радио, чтобы не уснуть за рулем.

Так и так, в рубке круглосуточно работающее радио - повсеместное явление. Равиннат решил вмешаться и ограничить список разрешенных радиостанций. Решение, типичный כסת"ח, выглядит странно, если учесть, что вахта не тянется 25 часов. Что делать религиозному офицеру, если он обнаруживает орущий גלי צה"ל, заступив на дежурство? Переключаться на "радио Рамалла"?