Rant++

[arpad]

Burg got his minute of fame in New Yorker. Funny, but his story makes me not gloomy, but optimistic. In a way.

Israelis are stretched between family, army and multitude of jobs. Rift between orthodox and secular society, rifts between Jewish communities, Arab minority, outside enemies, tax burden, crisis of elite, corruption, et cetera. Makes one feel awful.

But when I read all that fuss about Burg - I understand that outside world don't know a thing about real Israel. Holocaust-obsessed, militaristic and xenophobic - that's the line that Burg is selling there.

Those who listen to him can't grasp that majority of people voting for Israel left had served in the army. They don't know that the best antidote from militarism is to have real enemies - you understand first-hand that army can only protect you to some degree, not solve any problems for you. They never saw Israel youth that can be called anything, but xenophobic. And difference between remembering Holocaust and being obsessed by it is something you can't explain to them.

And I see that our problems - are problems of real life.


1963 Ben-Gurion vs. Nasser

We did impossible task of rising a country from the ashes of thousand years long exile. We did it on barren land devoid of oil, surrounded by enemies, in spite of worst massacre in our history. And we didn't turned into fanatics. We didn't succumbed to socialist ideas. We didn't become a backward country struggling for survival.

We are here. Changing, growing, developing.

And of course we have a hell lot of problems. But it is an only way to have a future.

Comments

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

We did impossible task of rising a country from the ashes of thousand years long exile.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

[arpad.livejournal.com]

I can advice you to compare US aid with GDP of Israel.

Or compare Israel GDP with GDP of its neighbors.

Or compare Israel and Saudi Arabia military expenditures.

Or look at XX century history, see lots of cases of wasted aid and failed economics and understand that aid alone cannot build anything.

Or check the list of other recipients of US military aid in the region.

Or look at table you quoted and notice at what year serious US aid flow started and what happens with US economic aid since 2000.

Etc etc etc

*

I am not sure it will change anything, though. Because when I am talking to you I can't get rid of feeling that you already know the simple answer and prefer to believe in it. May be I am wrong.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

ok, before I do all that, what is your point? So I know what are we talking about exactly

[arpad.livejournal.com]

My point is simple - Israel is not some doomed post-colonial experiment, Israel is not a sole obstacle to Mid-East peace, Israel is not a leech existing because it is protected by some power, Israel is not society filled by madness and hate.

Mind, I am not telling that we are all white and shining. I am telling that we are very different from US and from Europe, but we aren't alien. And we are sane on government level and on people level too.

Which sounds strange when you listen to the news. But after you delve a bit deeper into economical, political, historical facts it doesn't. That's my point.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

Israel is not some doomed post-colonial experiment, Israel is not a sole obstacle to Mid-East peace, Israel is not a leech existing because it is protected by some power, Israel is not society filled by madness and hate.

Well, I never said that. And neither did Burg.

I am telling that we are very different from US and from Europe, but we aren't alien.

Yeah, you have this mysterious soul, like Russians do? How convenient!
Anyway, every country has its lot of sane and insane people in the government, and you certainly do too, but for some time now I'm not sure that the sanity prevails in yours. At least when it comes to the problem of the Mid-East peace. I'm sorry to say that, but it was an israeli who killed Yitzhak Rabin (I suppose you don't need me to remind you the reason), and 30% of Israeli want him to be pardoned.

I think you're mislead in your understanding of my opinion. The only thing that bothered me in your post was this clear overstatement regarding the "impossible task of rising a country from the ashes". However, I do know the efforts that were put in the rebirth of the region, and who applied those efforts, but those afforts alone coudn't and most certainly wouldn't have been sufficient without this enourmous gratuitous aid Israel received from all around the world.

And yes, I'm biased in my opinion of jewish people, but not in a way you think I am.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

We are different. Not in mysterious - in very practical way. For example, Zionism is very much alike to German or Italian national independence movements of 19 century. Only Zionism started later. Judaism is different from Christianity. Conflict with Arab nationalism is unique. Position of Israel during cold war can be compared only with few other countries. Supreme Court position in Israel political balance is original in its ability to challenge executive branch. Situation of liberal country forced to live in non-liberal environment is unique. Et cetera.

*

Rabin's killer now is getting his life-time sentence. And both - right government of Netanyahu and left of Baraq that come after Rabin's government worked peace process further. Then partner of Rabin decided that he is Saladin and Nelson Mandela together and started a war anew. Refusing the best deal on negotiations table Palestinians had ever got. So now we have some voices that call Rabin a traitor. The real question though - how much influence these voices actually have.

I don't know about famous 30% poll. But I do know how many Knesset seats got political parties that don't openly subscribe to push a peace process. About 20 seats from 120. With zero influence in government.

So I don't pay much attention to these numbers. I can't imagine European country that would have kept this level of sanity in that level of danger.

*

Israel is not alone. And I don't underestimate the importance of aid. What I claim, though is that the aid was never a decisive factor. The decisive factor were Jewish people who come here by their own choice to begin a new life. People that were able to turn this aid into something meaningful, people that produce a lot more than all the aid combined.

Look at the world. Look at Argentine that was a most promising country in beginning of the century - why its economy is in endless shambles? USA fought on South Vietnam side - why what worked in South Korea failed there so miserably? Look at lots of African coutnries getting huge credits (in comparison with their economic size from World Bank) - why the development failed there. Look at Singapore and Taiwan - countries that had nothing but human capital in the beginning.

It is people who crate the picture, people, not just money.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

Zionism is very much alike to German or Italian national independence movements of 19 century. Only Zionism started later

So what?

Judaism is different from Christianity
So is buddhism, Islam, and many other religions. Again, so what? Your difference lies in the religion?

Conflict with Arab nationalism is unique
What do you mean? Because national conflicts always existed. In which way arab nationalism is different from those that experienced, say, Georgia, Yugoslavia and some other countries?

Position of Israel during cold war can be compared only with few other countries

How is that relevant?

Supreme Court position in Israel political balance is original in its ability to challenge executive branch.

or that, for that matter?

Situation of liberal country forced to live in non-liberal environment is unique

You mean, Lebanon ceased to be a liberal country? Since when?

Look at Argentine that was a most promising country in beginning of the century - why its economy is in endless shambles? USA fought on South Vietnam side - why what worked in South Korea failed there so miserably? Look at lots of African coutnries getting huge credits (in comparison with their economic size from World Bank) - why the development failed there. Look at Singapore and Taiwan - countries that had nothing but human capital in the beginning

You really want to go there? I wouldn't advise that. Seriously... Because in this discussion I'm a little bit more rational and I build my arguments on fact, not just patriotic feelings.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

From different input comes different output - that simple. That's why signs that would have been alarming in France or Britain can mean a different thing in Israel. Not because Israel is above law, because of different history.

You see - I do not consider myself a mindless patriot. I am living in Israel fifteen years and have my share of things I love and things I hate in this country. My share of hardships too. There are few things I am sure about. And one of them is that Burg is wrong.

Like that.

Well - I suppose we both have to do something useful now :) Was nice to talk with you.

Please not consider that as attempt to get a last word.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

1) From 1950 to 2006 Israel received from the US $80 billion in grants only.
2) GBD for Israel and its nearest neighbors:
Israel: $170.3 billion (2006 est.);
Syria: $77.66 billion (2006 est.)
Lebanon: $22.02 billion (2006 est.)
Jordan: $30 billion (2006 est.);
Egypt: $334.4 billion (2006 est.)
3)Israel military expandure: 7.3% of GBD (2006)
Saudi Arabia military expandure: 10% of GBD (2005 est.) GBD for Saudi Arabia: $366.2 billion (2006 est.)
4) With these kind of numbers, when aid is calculated in billions of dollars and we are talking about a period of 60 years? Well, somehow Japan comes to mind, but it doesn't get any aid for some time now.
5) Like those shown in this table? (http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/WatWTable3.html)? Or maybe you're interested in some numbers from the 80's? Tell me, because I can find those too, but I don't think they will serve as an argument to prove me wrong.
6) Well, I gave you the table for the US aid only. I didn't mention aid from european countries (like, the first and most obvious thing that comes to mind, the atomic bomb from France) or the debt paid by Germany since the end of WW II

[arpad.livejournal.com]

1-2) So - how many percent of Israel GDP is covered by US, Germany and other foreign aid? I don't know exact answer but obviously it is like 5%-10% not like 50%. How then a country with barely 6 million people can get GDP comparable with GDP of Egypt of 80 million? By hard work, by striving to be modern - you can't just get it out from nowhere.

3) You see that we aren't obsessed with military spendings. Our neighbors spend as much. And atomic bomb can teach your neighbors to forget about drowning you in the sea, but can't give you nor peace nor prosperity. They say that in 74 we already had a bomb. War started anyway. And unlike Russia we can't ever sell the nuclear technology to someone.

Etc.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

1-2) U.S. Aid to Egypt Totals $28 Billion in Three Decades (http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/features/egypt/)
Israel received a total of 96 765.6 millions of dollars (around 97 billions) of US aid, 87744.3 of which since 1977. Basically, Egypt received for the same period 3 times less than Israel.

Hard work is not everything.

3) Who was talking about military spendings? There is a difference between being militaristic and being obsessed with military spendings. Sorry, but the second notion doesn't make much sense to me.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

One is usually linked with another. Militaristic society tends to push all available resources into military development.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

oh, ok, would you say that USA is a militaristic country? I would, and so would, let's see... 90% of the world. And yet, USA military spendings represent 4.06% of the GBD (2005 est.) .
Yours is...?
Actually, your country ranks 6th in terms of military spendings. And the first one is Oman. Well, not really a threat, is it? (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html)
USA are in the ... 27th place.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

4% from how many trillion dollar? :)

And why do you think quite peaceful Oman and Katar spend so much? I don't suppose you believe that they are worried about Israel sneak attack?

We don't have peace agreement with Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and many others. We have a very cold peace with Egypt and warmer with Jordan.

Yes - 3 years of compulsory military service and that level of spendings is not something a country can enjoy. But it is a necessary evil, caused by our environment, not by our eternal love to rifles, planes and tanks.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

Well, the main constituent of any discussion is objectivity, and I don't think we are quite there.
The choice to rate one country's military spendings in terms of GDB percentage was not accidental, so I don't think that figures really matter.

Anyway, for the past 30 or 40 years your country leaded a very strong occupation policy, that's a fact. In this perspective I don't see how you can obtain a peace agreement with countries which territories you either occupied or attacked on a regular basis. And I don't see how you can manage to put a blame on them. Then again, "the necessary evil" and your "hostile environment" sound like a very good excuse. But somehow, I can't ignore this famous extract from Josef Weitz's (JNF director) diary:
"It must be clear that there is no room in the country for both peoples...If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us...The only solution is a land of Israel...without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises...There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, save perhaps for [the Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one [bedouin] tribe. The transfer must be directed at Iraq, Syria and even Transjordan. For this goal funds will be found...and only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution." (http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1706&Itemid=105)
He wrote it in 1940.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

I won't discuss endless issues of our rights to this land. But when talking about "occupation" one should remember that Palestine of Mandate times is Jewish land at least at same degree as it is an Arab land.

From international law viewpoint we have UN partition decision of 1947 that was accepted by Israel and rejected by all its neighbors. Since 1948 we have no "rights" here. We have a war. In 1967 Israel had no peace with any of its neighbors, but cease fire agreements. And Palestine was just as "occupied" by Jordan and Egypt.

Do you really tell me that in 1948 we should have become slaves again? Just to avoid these ungainly military adventures and bad opinion of outside world? I believe not.

Wars can and should end in peace with your former enemy. But the only way to achieve this peace is being both - strong and open to dialog when it possible. We made peace with Egypt and Jordan. And we will make it with our other neighbors when they come to their senses.

From history viewpoint I can mention India and Pakistan being in war since the end of colonial rule. But somehow neither country got an "occupation power" label, though India still "occupies" Kashmir in the eyes of Pakistan. Now they even reached something like cold peace.

So we just accept their past and hope that they will resolve their differences. One should try to think about Israel and its neighbors in same way.

Cause calling one side in conflict "occupying power" is a total BS, pardon my French...

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

and by the way, are you familiar with the notion of foreign capital and its relation with the economic growth of a country, well actually, its impact on it? Because we can go there too, if you want. For example, we can see the difference in foreign investments between Israel and Egypt.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know it very well. My exact point is that Israel is not North Korea - closing it doors to outside world.

Should I mention the effect of venture capital running from a country on first danger sign? The Thailand economic crisis, for example. The fact that Israel reached a state when world economy invest in a country with our level of problems, country where people do not work on Chinese wages should mean something.

You just can't get there in xenophobic military camp. You need free thinking, you need understanding of other countries, you need proper work ethics, education, et cetera.

[marimhe.livejournal.com]

I don't know why I persisted in calling GDB GBD :) Maybe because of my husband's pipes - GBD is a renowned pipe-maker :)

[arpad.livejournal.com]

The positive side of LJ is ability to talk with your opponent - quite differ from these forum fights where everyone tries to catch and trip another :)